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[EpicWikipedian]

Hello, it's me, EpicWikipedian. Just to let you know that I've got another wiki up through the same Advanced Hosting account as Nonsary, which is the Development Wiki. It offers more secure and sufficient ways of developing the greatest software for Wikkii, especially the new Wikkii skin, directly through the wiki software. Please note that you must have an approved account to do most stuff on there, in order to maintain the level of security you get on Development Wiki.

Just create an account on Development Wiki, then post a request on these forums to have it approved. After that, you're good to go. In cases where you are creating a report-a-bug account for a wiki you're an administrator at here, you'll be granted the "report managers" group, which allows you to manage the report-a-bug system for your wiki. To go to Development Wiki, click here: http://nonsary.wikkii.net/w/index.php?title=Main_Page. It's not really the size I want it to be right now, so please join in and help me out! Thanks!

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

I think we should keep this with the Support Wiki, although I haven't set it up fully yet.  I could also make a wiki under that domain dedicated to that purpose, which might be better than the Nonsary domain name.  I was going to create a developers wiki there anyway, as a place for storing code and would be editable only to specific users.  I think it would be best to keep everything in as dedicated an area as possible.  (all in one place)

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

I think it's really good that you're working hard on this; thanks.

[Sove]

I am still heavily against a mandatory skin.

[EpicWikipedian]

I am still heavily against a mandatory skin.

I know that some users might not like the idea of setting a new Wikkii-wide skin, but it helps beginners, when they only have to learn how to use one skin. Also, I would rather feel like I've signed up to one big site, not to hundreds of little sites.

However, this is not the only aim of Development Wiki. I've also developed a way of getting more links in the sidebar, which was mostly designed with the Vector skin in mind, but can also be used with the Monobook, Modern and Simple skins. Thanks for listening.

[Sove]

"I know that some users might not like the idea of setting a new Wikkii-wide skin, but it helps beginners, when they only have to learn how to use one skin."

I'm pretty sure Wikia used this exact same excuse for Oasis.

[Escyos]

As far as i'm concerned Monaco is still the best skin. It gives you heaps of article room and heaps of sidebar space, plus the sidebar has menus that pop out, so you can fit in more sub-menus, which means you don't need a menu that reaches down the page; it can all be right there.

Also I think you were talking about a special page for your skin so users just choose things for it, instead of writing the code themselves in a CSS page, that is a bad idea. If you don't learn these things from the get go then you're skills in mediawiki and general wiki formats is stalemated.

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

Actually, I think the development wiki could be good as a way of testing the options, which seems to be what you are using it for.  Good work. 

I don't think that the Wikkii skin would be as bad as Oasis, but I think it would be problematic to make it mandatory.  The limitless style of Wikkii is designed to give independence to those who want it.  Since MediaWiki users just use the standard Monobook and Vector skins, which are very similar, I don't think it would be too much trouble for beginners.  I think the best thing to do is to make the new skin desirable and better than the default ones, so that people will want to implement it.  It is possible that some people might have wikis on topics that require a particular style.  It would also help to have several varieties of the skin in that case.

I think that the skin is a good idea and we should keep working on it, but I don't think it should be mandatory.

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

As far as i'm concerned Monaco is still the best skin. It gives you heaps of article room and heaps of sidebar space, plus the sidebar has menus that pop out, so you can fit in more sub-menus, which means you don't need a menu that reaches down the page; it can all be right there.

I think Monoco is pretty good too, so it could possibly be something we could look into customizing.  It's fairly similar to the standard MediaWiki skins, which is good.  Vector can accomplish the longer menus with the collapsable sections, though that still isn't as compact.  

Also I think you were talking about a special page for your skin so users just choose things for it, instead of writing the code themselves in a CSS page, that is a bad idea. If you don't learn these things from the get go then you're skills in mediawiki and general wiki formats is stalemated.

I think we could still have explanations of customization and how to do it, and encourage users to use the css pages for greater customization, but it would still be good to have a system for selecting themes.  Even for advanced users, it would save time when first creating the wiki until they have the time to write a whole new layout, and beginners might find it too overwhelming to have to learn coding to be able to customize their wiki.  In fact, that could cause them to go to Wikia, which offers customization and set themes.

I would put the line at generic pre built themes over a theme editor; if users want greater customization, they should use the CSS pages.  We can write out prewritten code, but at least they would get an understanding from using it.

[EpicWikipedian]

I think a theme designer for Wikkii would really give us more of a chance to defeat the evil Wikia, and it probably won't affect your skills in MediaWiki too much, trust me. If you can prove me that it does affect your skills, we can obviously redesign the theme designer to allow users to use CSS easier, should they ever wish to go advanced.

As for "Monaco being the best skin ever", I honestly feel that the arrows next to the expanding navigation links in the Monaco skin are far too large. Also, the content area in Monaco is actually smaller than the content area in Monobook and Vector. However, there is no doubt that the Monaco skin is very nice indeed.

Regarding the advanced sidebar for the Vector skin, that was just a little side project which I worked on for fun while the development for the new Wikkii skin continues to this day. It allows for third-level navigation links in the sidebar, and works with the Vector extension as well. To see the advanced sidebar in action, please go to http://nonsary.wikkii.net/en/index.php?title=Main_Page. Thanks for listening.

[Escyos]

arrows are too large? They are slitly smaller than the font in the menu. You may be looking at a translated version of teh skin which turns those nice little >'s into huge pixelated monsters.

[HWoD]

Anything "mandatory" what is not "mandatory" through the development course of MediaWiki makes me Cartman (eg. SYG-IGH).

It doesn't matter if you've the best intents to do it - if you follow this agenda, then it's far too easy to become the same monster you fight against.

Anyways... EW, I feel that you're an itsy-bitsy-little-too obsessed with this Wikia hatred thing.

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

Yeah, I agree.  A mandatory skin would be doing the EXACT same thing as Wikia.  The way to implement the skin across all wikis is to make it so that they will want to use it.

[EpicWikipedian]

Anyways... EW, I feel that you're an itsy-bitsy-little-too obsessed with this Wikia hatred thing.

Not when they have done malicious things to me, like forcing their pathetic attempt at a logo down my throat, and refusing to delete my wiki when it moved from Wikia to Wikkii. That is why I'm trying to help Wikkii communities to develop ways to easily switch from Wikia to Wikkii.

Examples of what Wikkii has done to recently improve was to add the possibility of getting revenue from advertisements, as Gunggo mentioned on one of their posts. I'm not sure whether this would be done through existing advertisements, or additional advertisements would be added. This has also been noted on the comparison page at Community Wiki. Thanks for listening.

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

I don't think that intense hatred of Wikia is too much; not when considering what they have done and the way they have treated people.

[Escyos]

Hatred is not enough. Sabotage is barely enough for them.

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

Yeah, completely screw over their membership.  They shouldn't have ****ed up everyone's wikis and then acted like @$$****s about it.

Be warned though, they followers are die-hard and cite Wikia-written articles about why users should stay at Wikia as actual reasons why people should stay.  They also compare the changes to the Facebook changes, that suck at first until everyone gets used to them.  They fail to realize that there actually are changes that people find better, not worse.  I wonder if maybe we should go to large wikis and spam reasons why users should move to Wikkii.  I'd love to see their staff's reaction, and them trying to explain why Wikia is still better.

[Sasha Ehrenstein]

deleted

[EpicWikipedian]

I wonder if maybe we should go to large wikis and spam reasons why users should move to Wikkii.  I'd love to see their staff's reaction, and them trying to explain why Wikia is still better.

That would be a good idea, and maybe I could create a sockpuppet of myself (my original account, which was called EpicWikipedian, has been globally blocked) and start spamming on large wikis. Be aware though, I likely won't get very far that way. I'll probably get further by simply starting a discussion on the wiki about it, although there certainly won't be as much bashing of Wikia that way.

I'm also thinking about restarting the Anti-Wikia Alliance (AWA), probably under the name of New Anti-Wikia Alliance (NAWA), but this time, users can be as foul-mouthed about Wikia as they want. We could also borrow an element from the Angry Video Game Nerd where we could "make up our own swear words". This allows me to express myself about Wikia as much as I would like to, and I hope that people will be able to see how much we all hate Wikia at Wikkii. Thanks for listening.

[HWoD]

Guys... you can't be serious.
Spam, sock-puppets, cheer-hate-leaders with pom-poms.

And you try to drag Wikkii into this aswell.
If you put Gunggo to an awkward situation... well, I can see the mark of the combat boots on your butts, clearly.

Then your zealot-group can make an anti-Gunggo-Wikkii-fck-knows-what branch too.

You're clearly mistaken "possibilities" with "rights".

Wikia is a "free" possibility.
Yes, they're fouls.
Yes, they're greedy bastards.
Yes, they're a fcked up, tight-ass idiots.

But they gave you the possibility to create your own Wiki.
Then they changed the rules. Their right to do it.
They've earned it with the paid bills.

Your right to vote with your feet. And go away.

But you have no right to drag other communities, wiki-farms and companies into your hate-war.

Commandante Wikivara… ridiculous.